[Fredslist] US Government's legal arguement on CLOUD Files

Mon Nov 5 15:38:19 EST 2012

Honest businesses, including soldiers deployed overseas, and several congressional offices & senatorial offices lost data on Megaupload.

Hundreds of businesses died when the FBI shutdown McColo a few years ago.

Here's the crux of the problem.

Think of the cloud as Grand Central station.

You can use GCT to go home, buy food or deal drugs.

In the real world, the FBI doesn't strip search and arresr everyone because a few people sold illegal drugs.

Online, if 1 company commits a crime, EVERYONE ELSE is viewed as being equally guilty.  And burden of proof is upon you to prove your innocence.

Just because you shared a subway train with a bank robber doesn't make you an accessory.

In the cloud, having your data in the same facility or with the same provider does.

These are the 1st, 4th & 5th amendment rights that the government and large corporations want to erase...in the name of convenience and security.

-- Raj

917-685-7731
Raj at brainlink.com

Danny Mizrahi <dm at contangoit.com> wrote:

>Love it!!!  Thanks Raj.  Great stuff.  Interesting topic and looking
>forward to seeing the results.  Here's more explanation and links in
>case
>anyone is interested:
>https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/governments-attack-cloud-computing
>
>My point was (still is) that all of those companies I listed, did not
>just
>lose the rights to all their data.  Common sense says otherwise. 
>Lionsgate
>and Netflix didn't lose all their movies.  National Geographic didn't
>lose
>their images, etc, etc.  Honest businesses have nothing to worry about.
>Businesses that break laws, do and should be worried about putting
>their
>data elsewhere.
>
>...and Facebook should be illegal everywhere!!
>
>
> Danny Mizrahi
>
> p:  (212) 737-0608
> m: (516) 606-4326
> f:   (877) 737-2282
> www.contangoit.com
>
>
>
>On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Raj Goel, CISSP <raj at brainlink.com>
>wrote:
>
>>  Danny,
>>
>>       Per their arguement, ANY/ALL cloud providers face the same
>risk.
>>
>>       Remember, according to the DOJ, placing unauthorized GPS
>trackers
>> was valid.  When the courts ruled that illegal, they grabbed cellular
>> location and metadata - which WAS deemed legal.
>>
>>       Last week, the courts ruled that 24/7 monitoring, thermal
>imaging
>> and overhead viewing using drones and cameras in non-curtillage areas
>is
>> perfectly legal.
>>
>>       Once this argument takes hold, the legal standard (until
>overturned
>> by the Supreme Court or via an act of congress) will mean that any
>files
>> stored online will be considered fair game.
>>
>>       The right approach would be for
>> Google/Amazon/Apple/Microsoft/Rackspace to fight this ruling.
>>
>>       But doing that would cut into their Government sales contracts,
>and
>> tie their hands.
>>
>>       Just remember that BOTH Amazon and APPLE consider it their
>right to
>> remotely delete or wipe files on your kindle's and
>ipods/iphones/ipads.
>>
>>       And finally, megaupload was only illegal in the US. it WAS (and
>> still Is) legal in New Zealand.  The FBI broke NZ laws and illegally
>> grabbed this data.
>>
>>       By that definition, Facebook is illegal in most muslim
>countries.
>>       Google Apps is illegal in China.
>>       Facebook/Amazon/Rackspace/ATT/Microsoft/Google are in violation
>of
>> the EU Human Rights acts/data privacy laws.
>>
>>       So, which provider is illegal?  In WHICH jurisdiction?
>>
>>       And users should check the laws how often - daily?  weekly?
>> annually?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --Raj
>>
>> Rajesh Goel, CISSP
>> cell (917) 685-7731
>> CTO: Brainlink International, Inc.
>> raj at brainlink.com
>> www.brainlink.com
>> www.linkedin.com/in/rajgoel
>> www.rajgoel.com
>> You run your business, and leave the IT to us.
>>
>> Author of "The Most Important Secrets To Getting Great Results From
>IT"
>>
>>
>>
>> --- Original message ---
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fredslist] US Government's legal arguement on CLOUD
>Files
>> *From:* Danny Mizrahi <dm at contangoit.com>
>> *To:* "Raj Goel, CISSP" <raj at brainlink.com>
>> *Cc:* Freds List <fredslist at gothamnetworking.com>
>> *Date:* Monday, 05/11/2012 3:08 PM
>>
>> So don't put your files with a company like "megaupload" (see here
>for
>> why: http://megauploa**d.co <http://megaupload.com/>m).   They were
>> criminals.  That wasn't a real company.  There were copyright
>infringement
>> animals.  If "Goodwin" was stupid enough to put all his data with
>> a company that was OBVIOUSLY breaking the law in the most severe
>ways, then
>> he doesn't deserve his files back.  So the moral of the story is to
>make
>> sure you know who's cloud you're dealing with.  That's like saying if
>you
>> put your files with the Taliban, expect them to not be given back. 
>Yes,
>> your files will be gone if you give them to the Taliban and the
>Taliban
>> gets killed or goes to jail.  Good luck getting your files back.
>>
>> Good thing our clients are with Rackspace, Amazon and Google.  We
>have
>> about 140 clients, and not one of them experienced one second of
>downtime
>> to their email.  We're very proud of that.  Physical servers were
>shut
>> down, Cloud Servers stayed up.
>>
>> *Look at this list of companies that use Amazon's
>cloud<http://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/>,
>> including Netflix, Pinterest, Ericsson, Lionsgate, Nasdaq, PBS,
>Spotify,
>> Yelp, IMDB, NYU School of Medicine, Pfizer, Ticketmaster, Unilever,
>> Lamgorghini, and many more.*
>> *
>> *
>> *Look at this list of companies that use Google
>Apps<http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/customers/index.html#tab0>,
>> including United States General Services Administration, Yale, Brown
>> University, Heinz, National Geographic, Orbitz, US Holocaust Museum,
>United
>> Bank and Trust, and many more.*
>> *
>> *
>> *Look at this list of companies that use
>Rackspace<http://www.rackspace.com/managed_hosting/support/customers/>:
>> ~40% of the Fortune 100!, Living Social, Bluetooth, Mazda, Domino's,
>Six
>> Flags, and many more.*
>> *
>> *
>> You're telling me all of these companies are being fooled, and their
>data
>> isn't secure?  All of these companies just lost ALL of the rights to
>their
>> data?  No wayyyyyy.
>>
>> With love, hugs n kisses,
>>
>> Danny
>>
>>  Danny Mizrahi
>> [ Image ]
>>
>>  p:  (212) 737-0608
>>  m: (516) 606-4326
>>  f:   (877) 737-2282
>>  www.contangoit.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Raj Goel, CISSP <raj at brainlink.com>
>wrote:
>>
>>> Gothamites,
>>>
>>>             If you are using the cloud, or planning to, you may want
>you
>>> read this -
>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/04/eff_feds_goodwin_megaupload/
>>>
>>> The government arguments are that *Goodwin cannot demonstrate any
>>> “ownership” over the servers, since he merely paid for a service*.
>>> Moreover, while conceding that Goodwin might have the right to
>assert his
>>> copyright, that is “not sufficient to establish that he has an
>ownership
>>> interest in the property that is the subject of his motion – the
>copies of
>>> his data, if any, which remain on Carpathia’s servers”
>>>
>>> The DOJ is arguing that once you upload files to a 3rd party, you
>>> renounce all ownership to them.
>>>
>>>
>>> --Raj
>>>
>>> Rajesh Goel, CISSP
>>> cell (917) 685-7731
>>> CTO: Brainlink International, Inc.
>>> raj at brainlink.com
>>> www.brainlink.com
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/rajgoel
>>> www.rajgoel.com
>>> You run your business, and leave the IT to us.
>>>
>>> Author of "The Most Important Secrets To Getting Great Results From
>IT"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fredslist mailing list
>>> Fredslist at gothamnetworking.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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